223 and 224 — Thorns and Sunsets

Posted by Patrick Mead on Nov 12th, 2009

I’m back in civilization (see my blog scheduled to be posted later today at www.patrickmead.net) and trying to swim through a tsunami of work. Still, there is time to update there with a couple of questions.

I do not believe that God is the cause of suffering (except when we deserve it,) or that He causes us to suffer to become more mature or bring glory to Himself, but I have trouble understanding 2 Cor 12:7-10. Even though Paul’s thorn in the flesh is a messenger of Satan, it appears God is keeping it there to mature Paul and bring glory to Himself. This appears to contradict what I believe, what am I missing something here?

I’m not sure that God causes suffering in the general sense of that term, but I could be wrong. There are times that His judgments absolutely create suffering — and we could quote examples of that from scripture the rest of the day — but the idea that God makes our life difficult on purpose just because He can seems inconsistent with His character. I’m sure commenters will alert me if I am wrong (and comments are the best part of this blog, as a rule).

It is plain to me that God, while not the source of our pain, does not ride in and remove it every time, either. Whatever Paul’s thorn in the flesh was, God wasn’t going to remove it. Why? Here we enter the murky waters of speculation so it might be best to remember what God told Paul — His grace was covering Paul in spite of the thorn, the agent of Satan. Experiencing suffering is not a sign of a lack of God’s love or interest in you.

What if God kept us from experiencing trial and suffering? According to James, we would never mature. That makes sense. A baby has to learn how to walk and that usually requires a great deal of trial and error. We could save the baby all those bruises and angst by just carrying them around everywhere… but that wouldn’t be good for them. I remember long, long nights puzzling over verb declensions in Gaelic or Old English. My profs could have made my life much more pleasant by not requiring me to do homework, but that wouldn’t have been good for me. We all understand that, but how in the world could it be good for Paul to suffer an attack from Satan?

Look at it this way: what are the worst sins in your life? I am not talking about something you did when you were a teenager, but your current condition. What aspect of your character or what habit do you have that is the worst thing in your life, that thing that keeps you from being all that God has called you to be? I know I can answer that in a heartbeat. I know the sins that “so easily beset” me and grieve that I have not been able to completely rid myself of them after all these years. Your sins will probably be different but there are enough to go around — lust, greed, envy, anger, bitterness, divisiveness, apathy, gluttony… you get the idea. Now… what kind of person would you be if you were entirely free from sin? Don’t get excited too quickly — it might not be as good a thing as you imagine. If I were able to beat the last vestiges of Satan’s hold on me, I imagine I would become rather judgmental about those who still struggled. If I had no sin in my life, I wonder if I would have any love there, either. This isn’t to say I am comfortable with my sin or that I welcome it. God forbid! It is a messenger from Satan that reminds me I am not in heaven yet. I am redeemed at a great cost because I have done great wrong (in my mind and in my life). It reminds me of my need for grace and makes me far more likely to offer grace to others in turn.

Some of you might be already composing a reply to the effect that Paul’s thorn in the flesh wasn’t a sin, but a physical ailment. That is possible but I’ve never bought that idea. Some read a few of his statements to indicate that he had eye problems and contemporary accounts of his appearance seem to agree that he was bald, stoop shouldered… not a “looker” if you get my drift, but I remain unconvinced that Paul was fighting a messenger of Satan that was purely physical, especially after Reading Romans 7.

But what if it was? Okay, let’s go with that. That works, too. My frequent headaches help me slow down, think a bit more, and have compassion for others who suffer aches and pains. I have been offered dozens of “cures” for the headaches over the years but quit trying to fix them a few years back; I realized that they made me a better person. I had no sympathy for people who said they had back problems until I injured my back and… wow! As I pile the mileage on this body of mine and clog up my brain with trivia and “The Biggest Loser” type TV, I gain more sympathy for others whose bodies and brains are giving them trouble. Have you ever met someone who never gets a cold, never has a headache, and has never been sick a day in their life? How sympathetic, empathetic, and kind are they to others who suffer? If that illness is one that is odd and not visible such as intractable pain or one of the newer autoimmune diseases… only those who’ve “been there” can be servants of God, bringing comfort, understanding, and care.

Cutting to the chase: we need to struggle, so God let’s us. He reminds us that our salvation is not in question just because we are struggling. It is when we give up the struggle, lay down and quit, or join happily with Satan in rebellion that we are in danger.

. . . if there is eternal light and day in heaven, does that mean that we shall never again have and see wonderful, glorious sunrises and sunsets? [Every one we see] seems to be each more gorgeous than any we’ve ever seen before, as if somehow preparing us for eternal heaven. But, that somehow seems sad to me not to ever experience them again.

I’ve never been asked this one before! Cool. We used to live on a mountain in West Virginia. The sunsets were so spectacular that I actually resented anyone or anything that kept me down in the town (Morgantown), making me miss the light show. I had a relative, since passed, who painted nothing but sunsets. She didn’t paint well, but she kept the makers of orange paint in business for years. She couldn’t get enough of them.

In heaven, God is the light and there is no setting sun. Will this sadden you? No. Frankly, I don’t think you’ll miss them. But, if you do, God might do some reruns for you or provide something else to make sure that heaven is truly a place of joy for you. I’ve always loved the answer Jim McGuiggan gave his young son when he asked him what heaven was going to be like. With apologies — because I can’t quote it exactly — he said something like this: “Heaven is a place where, if you want to play, there is always someone to play with and the toys are grand. And it is a place where, if you want to walk, the weather is always fine. It is a place where, if you want to be quiet, you can be quiet. And if you just want a cuddle, you can always get a cuddle.”

Whatever it takes to make it truly heaven for you, God will do. Don’t expect it to be like it is here, though. God has more ideas than can be held in this physical universe. He has some real surprises up His sleeve. I can hardly wait to see them!

8 Responses

  1. JV Says:

    I’m sooo glad to see an opinion that the thorn might have been of a sin nature. I’ve long thought this, but don’t often find much support for it. But taking the Word (in the NIV) at face value:

    -”to keep me from becoming conceited” – God had a purpose for the thorn, or at the least, allowed / used it to His own glory;
    -”messenger of satan” – seems like something evil, or sinful; certainly more than just a circumstance of life;
    -”to torment me” – are we not tormented by our sin vices? Not to mention this implies an active, engaged thorn, rather than something passive;
    -”grace is sufficient” – the whole purpose of grace is to cover our sin; why would we need grace for an ailment?;
    -”power made perfect in weakness” – the ultimate of God’s power is Christ and His resurrection, which is perfected in our very imperfection;

    It all just “fits” to point to a sin problem of some sort.

    And yet, in God’s wisdom, He does not reveal the thorn, which enables EACH OF US to identify with it, no matter what it really was, and no matter what our “thorn” is.

    Great post and great response!

  2. Matt Dabbs Says:

    John 5:14 – his sin might result in punishment

    John 9:1-3 – his blindness was not caused by sin, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”

    It is never a one size fits all but I think the second example might challenge your assertion above that, “God makes our life difficult on purpose just because He can seems inconsistent with His character.” possibly in need of revision…do you think?

    Again, this is not one size fits all or that God does it this one way all the time. When we try to systematize things and have a nice, tight systematic theology we often miss the side of God that we just can’t predict because we aren’t playing with a full deck of cards. It is like we are trying to win a game of 5 card stud with a hand full of those pesky rules cards…it may look like 5 of a kind but when the cards are laid on the table it just doesn’t count.

  3. Greg England Says:

    I, too, never bought into the eyesight problem as Paul’s thorn in the flesh. Didn’t necessarily have a good answer, but I knew something had to be a better answer than that! Enjoyed this blog … as I almost always do. I say “almost always” because we want to leave you room for growth!

  4. Royce Ogle Says:

    Perhaps we should ask those who were eaten by animals and those who were sawed into peices. The same God who stopped the mouth of a lion for one allowed another to be eaten by a beast.

    Faith says I am married to the bridgroom for better or worse, in sickness and in health. Who am I to question what God does with one of his own? He is God after all!

    As for the second part….

    The glory of God so far surpasses anything we can experience in a mortal body…how wonderful it must be to see the Lamb of God. I doubt that any thoughts or desires can compete.

    Royce

  5. Chad Says:

    Just thinking, the beauty of sunsets comes from the changing colors and light patterns. In heaven God might be playing that or other light shows constantly. If God is the light in heaven, would he have to be a point source, or a constant color?

    As for the first question… I have been listening to some Focus on the Family podcasts recently. The most powerful messages come from those who have come through the most. The mothers who have lost their children have much more to say than those discussing how to keep a house clean. God can work in all things for the good of those who love him.

    There is an interesting section of the Similiran where the evil power who is fighting against the good introduces dissonance into the song that is being sung that creates the universe in an attempt to destroy the song, and creation. The creator weaves the dissonance into the song, and adapts the song so that he can take the destruction out of the dissonance. The effects are still there, and the song carries the scars, but they are not able to overcome the good works of the creator. (It’s been a while since I read the unfinished tales, so there are probably some mistakes in my retelling, but that is the idea presented)

  6. Todd Says:

    My theology of suffering in a nutshell:
    1 – general suffering in the world is a part of the fallen nature of the world since sin entered the picture in Genesis 3.
    2 – some suffering is the result of satan trying to derail the works of God. God allows this, especially in the cases of Job, Peter and Paul trusting His servants to rely on Him and persevere.
    3 – at times certain sin results in natural suffering as a consequence, just as all sin eventually results in suffering.
    4 – from time to time God reaches out and acts as regards to specific sins on a personal, national or global level.

    In every instance there is allowance for those that are His whether they be preserved from suffering or through it as His will dictates.

    And I am also a sucker for sun sets. The endless creativity of our God.

  7. ray vannoy Says:

    Patrick: Very trivial, but don’t we conjugate verbs and decline nouns? I defer to your sweet linguistic skills.

    Yep. You busted me!

  8. Dee Andrews Says:

    Thank you, dear Patrick, for answering my question about sunsets here!

    Sorry I’m so long in seeing it and commenting, but family crises have intervened.

    I feel much better now thinking that God will provide all my (our) needs and wants in heaven . . . including glorious skies!!

    Dee

Leave a Comment

Please note: Comment moderation is enabled and may delay your comment. There is no need to resubmit your comment.